Etan Thomas recently had 14-year NBA veteran and current broadcaster Matt Barnes on his podcast “The Rematch.” 

Together with Stephen Jackson, Barnes hosts his own podcast, “All the Smoke,” which has featured guests such as Kobe Bryant, Stephen Curry, Kevin Durant, Kevin Garnett, Allen Iverson, Dwyane Wade, Snoop Dogg, Chris Paul, Steve Nash, Ja Morant, Jamie Foxx and Lil Wayne, among others.

On this week’s episode, Barnes talked about his transition to media, his involvement in the social justice fight, how he repaired his relationship with Derek Fisher and much more. You can watch the episode above or read the transcription below.

Etan Thomas: Listen, I love what y’all are doing, you and Stak. I love the fact that y’all have gone into this area of media. For me, I didn’t really like the media when I was playing and I feel kinda similar with y’all but y’all are doing it differently to give guys an opportunity. So, I love it. I love what y’all are doing.

Matt Barnes: I appreciate it. As athletes, we always thought there was some sort of motive. There was a handful of people that you kind of trusted, but for the most part, you had to watch yourself with the media. That’s something Jack and I are trying to change, obviously. We’ve experienced pretty much everything that our guests have experienced and that gives us an easier intro and a different approach, which allows most of our guests to really let their wall down and feel comfortable speaking to us.

Thomas: What I want to talk about is not really a whole lot with basketball, it’s other stuff. So, you’ve been doing a lot with using your voice and platform, in particular after Stephon Clark’s murder. Now, you didn’t know him personally, but it hit home for you because it was in your hometown of Sacramento. First, let’s remind everybody of what happened with the case.

Barnes: Yeah, I mean basically there was some calls about someone breaking into cars and Stephon happened to be out, they chased him down into his grandmother’s backyard and shot him several times. I think there were six to eight shots in his back, but I don’t know how many rounds they let go. And like 99% of the cases in the United States the cops were not held responsible for the situation. I had happened to just be watching CNN that morning in my room with my twins and they heard Sacramento, so I was watching it and they were playing on their iPads, they heard Sacramento so they started paying attention and was like dad, did you know him? I’m like ‘Nah I didn’t know him,’ and they were kind of just confused and their confusion and hurt is what really made me kind of want to be like ‘Let me see if there’s something that I can do to show my kids that there’s ways to help in situations like this.’ 

So, myself, DeMarcus Cousins, I think the Sacramento Kings helped a little bit, a handful of people helped and we just made the experience a little easier for the family by helping with the funeral, getting people situated in hotels, and really kind of doing everything we possibly can to try to ease as much pain as possible from the family. With me continuing to use my platform and calling out the DA out there, Anne Marie Schubert, she’s a very crooked DA -- takes money from the police department all the time -- and has never really dropped the hammer on any situation out there, which is very unfortunate. But I think me with the platform I have and the voice that I have to be able to call stuff like that out it allows other people to see it and then other people start calling it. Hopefully, this will be her last term as DA because now everyone’s really awake about voting and how important voting is and hopefully we’ll be able to get her out after this last term she’s serving right now.

Thomas: Talk about how it personally affected you. So, I know for myself anytime a tragedy like this happens, I immediately start talking to my kids. And talking to them about it and they start asking questions and you mentioned your sons saw it because they’re from Sacramento, that’s where you’re from. So, I remember when Trayvon Martin happened and my son Malcolm was six at the time and he was asking me questions about it. You know my son is tall for his age, you know what I mean, he’s six, but he was tall. I’m 6-foot-10, my wife is six feet, you know so I knew in a while he’s not going to look like a little kid, you know, they’re going to treat him like he’s a teenager or something like that. So, I had to talk to him about the rules and how he had to do this. Like, having the talk black people have to have with our kids whenever something like this happens. Did you have those kind of discussions with your sons?

Barnes: I did and it’s crazy because like you said it’s the talk that African-Americans have to have with their kids. You know this is not a common talk that every parent has to go through. You know like the old sex talk. Like this is really targeted at black and brown people having to educate their kids at a very young age. I briefly talked to them about it because it was so fresh and so new but then the George Floyd situation came up this past summer and they’re 12 now and obviously more awake and they’re on a few social media outlets. I remember it was my ex-wife’s week, but we had practice so I picked them up that Saturday right after it happened and I asked if they’ve seen what happened. And one of my sons was like “Yeah, another cop killed a black man, right?’ I’m like ‘Man, 12 and they’re kind of already picking up on what it is,’ and we kind of just started talking back-and-forth about the situation. They asked if all cops are bad and if all cops are racist and I said no. Then, I asked them ‘Do you guys think hate is taught or you’re born to hate?’ They paused for a second and then one of them says, ‘You’re taught to hate, right?’ I’m like ‘Absolutely.’ 

Then the other one, spur of the moment -- I have a two-year old now -- their little brother in their life, and you know we’re going to have to teach Ashton how to love and that kind of really hit me in the heart because that’s how simple this is. All this hate and negative thoughts towards people based off the color of their skin is the top trait. So, it’s unfortunate that 12 year olds can see it and a majority of the world can’t. So, like you said, it’s a conversation we have to have and you just have to prepare yourself because you know, like you said, my kids are 12 and I’m not sure how old your son is now, but they’re going to be teenagers soon and they really just have to prepared for what this world is going to bring to them.

Thomas: Let’s go back to Sacramento and after Stephon Clark, you organized a march, the March for Action at Cedar Chavez Plaza in Sacramento. Tell me about that.

Barnes: Yeah, you know just try to use my platform. Contacted people out there and you know I have aspirations about running for mayor out there one day, so I’ve been doing a lot of stuff in the community out there. Just trying to bring more awareness to the situation, you know, hoping our actions and our marches would put some pressure on the DA to bring charges amongst these officers. Unfortunately, we failed, but it was just a string of ever since  then, it’s been consistently happening more and more often. And I think now more than ever, people are woke to it, speaking on it, but there’s still no repercussions. I read an interesting article that they say 1% of officers are held accountable and less than 1% are actually charged for killings and it was just like 9.5 out of 10 times these officers are getting off for these crimes.

People want to talk about defund the police and I agree, but I don’t agree with the wording right there. The bigger picture to me is the police union. The two strongest unions that are out here is the police union and the teacher union. And they’re very strong, very backed, and funded well. So I think it starts with the reconstruction of the police union because that is the true blue shield and I think the rest will trickle down. But, like I said, it’s a tough situation but I’m glad I’m just one of many athletes or celebrities that are really trying to utilize our platforms and I think we’re starting to see the benefit of that. We came out in record numbers this year to the polls to vote and get Trump out and you know we encouraged those great people in Georgia to get out and vote in that senate race, and you know we flipped the state, so I think now that people understand. I’ve always tried to tell people once I started getting in this lane that we’re not the minority. They label us the minority to try to keep us in our place, but if we came together we’re actually the majority. And I think we’re starting to understand that now and the power that we have when we come together and flex our power at the polls.

Thomas: So, you have aspirations to run for mayor. I didn’t know that. So, talk to me about that and when did that start?

Barnes: You know Kevin Johnson, former NBA player from my hometown did it. And when I first saw it, it wasn’t so much about the political and the policy side, I just really saw him making a difference in the community. Helping the community, cleaning up the community, bringing opportunities to the community, and it really kind of struck me. I had never even thought about politics before that, but I was just like 'It would be cool if I could comeback and kind of pick up where he left off,' when I was ready. So, that’s what kind of sparked my interest.

Obviously, there’s a new mayor now in Darrell Steinberg and I’m working on a few projects in Sacramento to continue to improve my hometown. You know I was lucky to be able to make it out, you were lucky to be able make it out, and you know one wrong move either way and people probably could’ve never heard of us or we could’ve been on the wrong end of a statistical category. So, when I speak and the stuff I do is not necessarily for me, its for all the people that don’t have a voice. Like, my aunt was killed in the same city that Stephon Clark was killed. Her throat was slashed and she was left in the gutter. You know what I mean? So it directly affects me and that’s why I’m so outspoken on situations, but like I said initially, it was just to do better but now kind of understanding the political side and learning the political side daily, it's something I definitely want to push for when my kids get a little older and all my business affairs are kind of settled.

Thomas: You started a scholarship to make sure Stephon Clark’s sons would be able to go to college, right? Talk to me about that.

Barnes: To be honest with you it didn’t get as big because something else had came up at the same time. But, I have money aside for them when it's time. I actually lost contact with the family... I haven’t actually spoke to any of them in a while. Always praying for the family, but when those kids are ready, I’ll definitely have money for them to make sure they’re taken care of when it comes time for college.

Thomas: That’s great. Now, what kind of support did you get from the NBA community? With the march and everything. What kind of support did they give you?

Barnes: You know Sacramento is always, the Kings are always really good about community activities. I had some former teammates, you know they played for Sac at the time, and they came out to support. I got some good support from the Kings. I didn’t really necessarily take it to the NBA or the NBA Players Association because that wasn’t why I was doing it at the time. Obviously, looking back, you kind of want to connect as many dots as possible but I was really just -- it was a call to action, you know this was my hometown, I’m one of the more notable names from that hometown, so I just wanted to do anything I could to help ease the process for a grieving family.

Thomas: Did you connect with any of the activists in the area? That’s always an interesting dynamic when athletes or entertainers or rappers or anything like that because sometimes its either friction or there’s opening with open arms. I saw you with Jamila Land I think. I’ve done some stuff with her and I saw you with Reverend Sharpton at the funeral. Who are some of the activists you connected with?

Barnes: The two you mentioned but like I said, that wasn’t my plan to be honest with you. I wasn’t looking for a handout or anything. Like, I just felt like Sacramento being the small town that it is it needed a big voice to bring attention to this situation. So, when I jumped to the forefront, DeMarcus Cousins jumped to the forefront. I think it brought attention to it. Of course, Al Sharpton does what he can do, always trying to shine light on situations like this. From a friction standpoint, there was really no friction. Obviously, there’s stuff you have to deal with when you’re dealing with several family members and everyone experiences grief in a different way, you know what I mean? So we had a hard time dealing with his brother for a little bit, but like I said, who are we to tell someone how to grieve after losing a family member? So obviously, there were some hurdles that we were fortunate to overcome, but like I said, my whole goal was to bring attention to this situation that you always hear about around the country and obviously you feel for it, but it’s a special feeling in a bad way when it's your hometown.

Thomas: Do you still get the comments or the criticism from some aspects of mainstream America that, as athletes, they don’t feel we’re regular black people? Like, we don’t feel the same sting of racism or anything like that like the rest of the country?

Barnes: Daily. People think because we make money that changes the color of our skin and they’re like you live behind gates, you have X amount of money, you don’t feel this pain. Like I mentioned earlier in this interview, when I speak up, it’s for the voiceless, it’s for the people that don’t have the money, it’s for the people that don’t live behind gates, it's for the people that don’t have the platform that we have. Letting people know that we never really forget where we come from. Some people do get disconnected and that’s unfortunate. But there’s a lot of us that don’t get disconnected and just because we were able to make it -- it took a lot of luck, hard work, love and prayers, obviously -- we never forget where we come from and we realize we were one of the lucky ones that made it. Nine and a half people out of 10 aren’t going to make it.

Thomas: Going back to the discussions with your sons. With me, I just watched with my son Malcolm and my daughter Imani, "Will They See Us."

It was a tough watch and I wanted them to see it. They asked so many different questions and so many people don’t understand what our young people are up against. And once they look at the justice system and how they were treated in particular, you know, we had to take breaks and pauses. How did you react watching that?

Barnes: You hit it on the head. To be honest with you E, it took me a lot longer to watch that series. I’m a binge watcher, that’s one of my favorite things to do. I create content so I’m always watching for new ideas and stuff. But I had to take a few different breaks from that series because it was so frustrating. You wanted to cry, you wanted to hurt, you wanted to hurt somebody, you felt so bad for these kids at the time because you can completely see how the system screwed them and how people like Trump tried to double down on it. It was just a really unfortunate situation, but that’s just one of many. Ava DuVerney did a good job of bringing that story to life, but how many Central Park Fives situations are there across the country, or individuals, or two people that have been screwed over by the justice system? So, I think stuff like that is very important, although its very hard to watch. These stories need to be told because there is such a double-edged sword when it comes to policing and your ethnicity and I think a perfect example is the raid at the capitol on [Jan. 6].

You know, you hear several people say what if they were black -- and I think we all know the answers to that -- and now we’re starting to see people get arrested, and they’re bailed the same day or the next day because they have some money to be able to do it. But if the ethnic roles were reversed, these people would all be arrested, sitting there waiting for trial, convicted to the highest form of conviction possible. And I’m not setting myself up, I wouldn’t say "heartbreak," but I just kind of have a feeling that, you know, outside of the policing system being crooked, the justice system is crooked as well.

I’m not sure what the law was but right before this happened, you know Trump, what is it a minimum of 10 [years] for defacing property? So, I mean, you hope because that’s what they said and if it was us, it would be a minimum of 10. I would love to see these people held accountable, but you just never know with the way society goes today.

Thomas: And its that double standard that’s frustrating and you know going back to the Central Park Five and you see in the movie, they were kids, like, they were like babies and they were treating them like they were hardened criminals... But that’s real. Like, that happens all the time.

Barnes: I mean look at the Kalief Browder situation -- obviously, Jay-Z did a great job of bringing that story to life -- but this young kid was treated like a grown man for something he didn’t even steal. I mean, [he] was beat constantly by guards and inmates and like treated like a real man. He had a psychology breakdown and what happened happened. And obviously, rest in peace to him, but like I said, there’s so many of these stories out there that happen to black and brown people, it's unfortunate.

Thomas: So what’s the message when you talk to young black men and young brown men? When I was playing with the Wizards, I worked with this great organization called Free Minds and it was in the correctional facilities in D.C. It was in the same jail as the regular D.C. prison, but it was like the youth section. So, it wasn’t juvie because they were in the regular D.C. prison and my first thing was "Why are they here next to, like, the big prisoners?"

These cats are like 13 and 14 year olds and I’m listening to what they’re in there for and it’s little stuff. Like a little teaspoon of marijuana, you know what I mean? The racial dynamics when they’re different you don’t see the same -- you get a whole different type of justice. That’s the part that’s hard to wrap your mind around because you see it happening to our young people so much.

Barnes: Obviously, I feel like with this new administration that we’re heading in the right direction and I think it's all of our jobs to hold them accountable. But at the same time, depending on the system for justice is the wrong hope, I think for black and brown people. So, I work with a group called Active Peace and we try to get it at the root. We directly work with the actual shooters or the people most likely to get shot. All we continue to tell the under funded communities -- particularly black and brown -- stop the violence, put down the guns, but what are we tooling them with? You know, for the most part, that’s their only means for survival. I’m not saying I agree with it, but you got to survive by any means.

So, with this group with Active Peace, we put them in a 18-month program, we set goals for the first nine months, we communicate a lot with them, and then the second nine months you’re actually able to earn money monthly for reaching the goals that you set. I think we need to do more at the root.

Obviously, you see a bunch of companies now with this unfortunate situation with George Floyd that want to donate money, but I think often, you need to work with the people on the ground in those cities because what I need in my hometown is different from what you need in your hometown. And I think sometimes the umbrella of "Let’s throw some money at Black Lives Matter" or "Let's throw some money at this and that" instead of actually working with the people in the community. Like, what do you need in Oakland? What do you need in D.C.? What do you need in Baltimore? Because all of us have all of these communities have an underlying problem, but for the most part, it's different where we feel like the money could go.

I just think it's really important to align with the people that know the city well because, like I said, you can’t throw a blanket over this issue. Each city is different. Like I said, to really get to the root, to really start getting some funding in these communities, which I thought was big for the NBA to really push the owners to do. It’s really got to be less lip service and actually more putting the money where you mouth is and really getting in these communities and trying to help.

Thomas: I saw you meeting with President Biden for the elections. You brought up his authoring of the crime bill, you brought up mass incarceration which was consequently from the crime bill. You challenged him on it and you said you wanted to talk to him about it and he was open to talk about it. Tell me about that process because it's an interesting dynamic. At first, it was like he wasn’t going to address it, and then he finally addressed it. It was kind of like the elephant in the room at first.

Barnes: Well, he needed to. At the end of the day, our vote is what got him through, I don’t care what nobody says. And for him to push for our vote, that was the first thing that came up. When I’m trying to encourage people who never registered to vote, thought about voting, thought their vote mattered, understanding the importance of this election. Well, Trump’s bad, but what about the 1994 crime bill, and I really didn’t have a real rebuttal.

So, when I go and ask these questions, it's tough questions, but at the same time, it's questions that need to be asked. But me kind of doing a little more digging into the situation -- just kind of understanding the rate of violent crimes that have been on the rise since the 60s and then the late 70s and early 80s -- what does the government do? They bring cocaine and guns to the hood so our families and people are drug addicts and committing crimes. So, it was a perfect storm in ’94 that some kind of foundation had to be laid to restore order. It passed through Union -- it passed unanimously -- but what I like, after all these years and whether he’s telling the truth or not, he did have regrets on certain parts of the bill. And it seemed sincere on righting those wrongs, and the one thing he told me: the 2021 crime bill will try to fix the wrongs from the ’94 crime bill. So, we can only hope.

Obviously, politicians know how to talk. That’s the way they get elected. I’m fortunate enough to have a direct line to him now and I have a group of people like myself, Deion Taylor, Robert Smith the black billionaire, Van Jones, Charlamagne, you know, we talk twice a month and that’s just a few of us, but it's probably like 50 people on the call. We want to be able to hold this President accountable. We understand how powerful our vote is now and although we put him in office, we understand that if him and Vice President Harris don’t live up to what they promised or said or do, then we have the power to push them aside and get someone else new in now. So, I really think these two, the President and Vice President, not necessarily go out of their way, but I think it's definitely on their mind because neither of their track records were good for people that look like us leading up to this situation, but people that look like us are who put them in office. So, I feel fairly confident that they’re going to try to right some of their wrongs and really step out on an edge.

You see Biden’s cabinet now is one of the most diverse cabinet we’ve had. I’m just kind of excited to see what happens once we can get past this Trump BS, and hopefully, we can get him out of the picture for good. If they’re finally able to charge him for this impeachment, you know, allowing him to never run again. I think we’re heading in the direction. Are Biden and Harris the answer? We’re going to have to wait and see. Hopefully, they are and we can start going in that right direction and give them two terms and hand it off to the next group of people. If they’re not, it’s our jobs to get them out.

Thomas: I had my reservations about and objections to different parts of Biden’s past and Kamala Harris' past, but then I was looking at the alternative and when you’re looking at the alternative, even going back to "When They See Us," you know [Trump] was pushing for these teenagers to be executed. Like, literally, that’s what he wanted to happen. He wanted to have them lynched in the middle of the town like back in slavery time because they were accused of raping a white woman. It didn’t matter the evidence, they didn’t have any DNA, and that’s the part that hurt me so much. The prosecutor, Linda Fairstein, I remember in the movie the way it was depicted, she kept calling them animals, they had to do it. That depiction was so much of an accurate representation of what happens typically in the justice system to our young black and brown kids. So, it's like you know that has to be addressed because that can’t continue going to a new president and having a new wave and everything like that. The same thing can’t continue.

Barnes: No, it’s unfortunate, you know what I mean? But if you think about it, what most people don’t know -- how did policing start? Policing was started as slave wranglers, you know what I mean? So, anything that was built on foundation based on prejudice and hate was bound to rear its head. But, like I said, it's not just the policing system, it’s the DA, it’s the judges. Like, it really runs deep, and it's unfortunate because, like I said -- there’s a statistic on this -- but people still want to overlook the statistic when it comes to a negative betrayal of the system. But when they look at statistics of us being incarcerated and us being in gangs and us doing this and that, oh those statistics are right. But when you pull up these statistics about our system, it's overlooked for some reason. It’s not going to be an easy fix. We have to understand, it took us over 400 years to get here and I think we’re finally at the tipping point. I can comfortably say we’re finally at the tipping point and now we have to see what happens from here on out.

Thomas: It’s important that you’re pushing and holding him accountable. We were under such a dark cloud with Trump and so the bar is set so low that anything looks better, right? Even though we’re going to have a new regime, we have to hold this regime accountable and we can’t be partying so much and be like 'Everything is great now, so we don’t have to worry.' That’s why when I saw you doing that and meeting with him, forming that coalition of all these different people, I was just like applause. Like, that’s fantastic.

Barnes: I appreciate that and I think also what we have to understand, and like I said before though, we are here to hold him accountable. The one thing I will say is that Biden’s doors are open. We have to understand it's not going to happen overnight. It took us so long to get here. We have the senate now. Hopefully, the George Floyd justice and policing bill will get passed, so like I said, it's going to be a process of changing something. But, you know, this is a critical time in our country because I think what you’re seeing now -- and I say this with all due respect -- is white men are feeling their power slip away. I think that’s why you’re seeing all this rebel and seeing all this crazy Trump-ness. To me, in my eyes, hopefully the playing field is going to start to leveling off because look at all we’ve accomplished -- black people, but brown people as well, and we’ve always been behind the eight ball.

They’ve done everything they possibly can to keep us in our place and that’s why I think people like Jay-Z are so important, Robert Smith, Puffy. We have black billionaires. It can be done. If they give us equal footing, I think that’s what they really fear, we’re going to excel and take our rightful place. At least equality, it's not to say we want it all back, we want you to pay for what you did, we just want equality. We want to be treated just like our counterparts that are different colors than us. I didn’t want to see people gun downed on [Jan. 6], but I don’t want to see black people gunned down for sleeping, for jogging, for holding toy guns. We just want the same opportunity that you’re giving other people.

Thomas: You know who I would like to see join your coalition, Ice Cube. How did you interpret that whole situation?

Barnes: I haven’t got a chance to talk to Cube. Actually, during that time, he was supposed to come on our show and stuff got really hot, so it kind of took a backseat for a minute. But from what I understand, from looking on the outside looking in, he presented an opportunity to both sides and it seemed like the only side at the time from what I saw that was willing to have a conversation with him was the Trump side. Do you work with someone for the betterment of our people, someone as bad as Trump? You’re going to have people on both sides of the fence, but from my understanding, he didn’t get any response from the Biden campaign, so he went with the Trump campaign. Knowing Cube and knowing -- if you’re a fan of his music and a fan of him -- he’s been on this since he come on the platform, since Straight Outta Compton he’s always been politically outspoken and it's always been for us, you know what I mean? So I think this was a situation where his heart was in the right place, maybe his words got twisted or the situation got twisted or maybe he was just trying to help and they made it seem like he was really working for Trump or with Trump, so until I get a chance to sit down and talk to him, which I know I will, I really don’t want to pass judgment. But his track record to me has proven that he’s always been for us.

Thomas: Well, I would love to see him come on "All The Smoke" and just clear everything up, break everything down. So, I’m looking forward to seeing him come on there because you know we grew up listening to Cube.

Barnes: We are Cube fans, and for me to get a chance for someone I idolized and the chance to know this dude... His greatness is right in front of me, you know, one time he came when I retired and pitched me on the Big 3 and came to my house. So to be able to be a fan of his track and what he’s been able to do with the Big 3, I’m going to give him the benefit of the doubt until I get an opportunity to hopefully talk to him or I see him talk about this to someone else and really tell his side of the story.

Thomas: Now, let me ask you this, because I saw a few examples of some of the traditional media outlets that get very upset with people like you and Stak because you all are getting interviews that they can’t get. You’re getting interviews with people that they can’t even crack the surface with and they’ve been trying for 25 years. But that level of hatred you’re getting from the mainstream media, I mean, for me it just says that you’re doing something right. What is your reaction to some of the hatred that you get?

Barnes: I just smile, you know what I mean? Because the hatred was similar to what I got when I played, and you know that you’re never going to be able to make everyone happy. But my whole goal with "All The Smoke" was to humanize our guest. Rest in peace Kobe, but you know Kobe’s greatness, you know KG, Steph, KD. You know what all these guys are great for, but I wanted to be able to strip that down and show how that process came about -- what turns they made or what obstacles they overcame to become as great as they are at their craft. I think because of myself and Jack’s track record -- obviously a spotted track record, to say the least -- but it’s always been real.

We’ve got into some trouble, we’ve owned up to it, and if we needed to apologize, we apologized. But we just always handled ourselves in the realest type way. So I think when we get our guests, they understand that we’re not here for clickbait, we’re not here to start trouble. We really just want to be able to have an in-depth conversation and like I said, it was never a situation where I wanted to put a mic in someone’s face. I don’t want that type of interview. I want it to be a kickback atmosphere like we’re at the house medicating or having a drink and just having a good conversation and I think that’s what we’ve been able to do because of the realness Jack and I always approached life with and the game with. People respect that and they feel like they can be comfortable with us. I forgot the guy’s name, Phil something from the New York Post that just wrote a horrible article about me and Jack. Like, horrible. I’m just like, ‘You’re mad because you’ve been in this space for 30-plus years and, at the time, we hadn’t even done "All The Smoke" for a year but our resume already far exceeded anything he’s ever done.’ To me, how I used that for fuel as a player, I use that as fuel as media now. It’s crazy that we call ourselves media now. Because I never thought, me, media? You know what I mean? But I like seeing people like me, you, the Knuckleheads and all of these other former players that are in this space.

We’ve always allowed other people to tell our stories. We’ve always just been the talent. [It’s always been], ‘You go score touchdowns or dunk or shoot threes or hit home runs or run [for] world records in track and let these white people tell our stories.’ But we’re intelligent enough now and can hold a conversation long enough and paint a picture well enough now to tell our own story. And again, that’s a little bit of that power slippage that they’re starting to see from mainstream media where they’re like, ‘What are these athletes doing coming in here and doing our job? And in some cases, doing our job better.’

Thomas: So, I’m a part of this big Facebook group called Black Fathers and we have all these different types of conversations in there. They had a big discussion and they were talking about you and how you were able to be the bigger man. There was a big picture with you, Derek Fisher and everybody. So, they just wanted me to ask you how did you do that?

Barnes: It’s for the betterment of the kids. Obviously, a situation went down. What people say is he stole your wife and this and that. My ex-wife and I, Gloria, at the time, were divorced. And she happened to move on with him and now I’m on good terms with both of them. The initial conversation was, the way I approached is you can’t help who you fall in love with, but at the same time, there’s ways to handle situations like this respectfully. The fact that we were teammates for a few years, we were good friends, we hung out, you know, if a situation like that arises, you can’t help who you fall for, but at the same time, you could’ve came to me like a man, she could’ve came to me as an ex. But to allow my kids to be the ones to break the ice to me is what really kind of bothered me. So, we had our altercation, but you know, they had found love and who was I to get in the way of that? You know, my ex and I were done. So, it just came to a situation where he was always at their games and I coach my kids, ever since I retired I coached them in football and basketball, so they’re always going to see me there. And he would come with Gloria and it was just awkward because he would kind of just stay away from everyone when I was there or trail back when everyone is leaving and I’m like 'I don’t want this awkwardness.'  

At the same time, my kids really liked him. 'Dad, we love Derek, he’s great, he’s this and that.' That’s my first concern. The fact that, you know, her and I were out of love and we were both going in our separate direction and she was in a relationship with him, I’m just like 'Let me holler at this dude and give him my point of view.' And just I told you: 'I just didn’t like the way you handled the situation. If you would’ve came to me as a man, I wouldn’t have liked it, but I would’ve respected it.' You know what I mean? I would’ve had to respect it. My only priority in this situation now is my kids' happiness and there’s happiness there.

So, it took us, you know, two or three years to get there, but now they’re happily in their situation and I have a situation with my youngest son’s mom. So, we’ve all moved on for the betterment of the twins because when my ex-wife and I were going through things, I could see it on the boys. They were five when we started separating and going through the divorce. They’re 12 now. It was just a tough situation to kind of see them have to bear the weight of their parent’s issues. So, once I was in a good space and ready to move forward, I wanted to relieve any kind of stress from their minds because being a kid is already stressful enough. I didn’t want them to have to deal with anything that's adult-caused. So, like I said, we squashed the beef, we’re in a great place now, we spent their birthday together. Oddly enough, I had a situation at my house, obviously COVID safe, but I had my current girl, my ex-wife, and my former teammate. But like I said, it was for the twins' birthday, everyone had a good time, everyone was drinking, all the adults were outside playing laser tag. So, it was just like a good solid environment, because at the end of the day, we’re one week on, one week off.

So, he’s the man in their life for two weeks out of the month, for half the year he’s the man they’re going to see. So, I just hit him with we have to do a good job of raising these boys. We’re on the same team again. Our goal is to raise two young biracial but African-American boys in this country. Outside of the move he pulled, Fish has always been a cool dude to me. So, once we got past the situation, I think we were able to shake hands and understand it’s not about us no more, it’s about the kids.

Thomas: Wow. That shows a lot of maturity, you know what I mean? I got to be honest with you.

Barnes: It took a minute. It took a minute. Like I said, I think that’s one of the things that’s been able to help me be successful in this space because I never looked at myself as an NBA player. I’m a man first, so if disrespectful stuff happens to me, I’m going to act accordingly. If you think about it, people have been killed for shit much less than that, you know what I mean? Stepping on those kind of toes in real life, real stuff goes down. So, I didn’t look at myself like 'Oh man, damn he did that to me,' but I play in the NBA, so I’m like 'Nah, you disrespected me as a man,' so we went about what we feel like we need to do to get the situation handled. But like I said, I think that was like a knock. I was criticized by some but then applauded by some, but I think I handled it the best way I could at the time. The fact we’re on talking terms and really co-parenting terms now, it all ended up for the good. But, shit, it was tough. Trust me, it was tough.

Thomas: Just know the Facebook group that I’m in with Black Fathers that nobody criticized you (laughter). Let me say, like I said, much respect to you and everything that you and Stak are doing. Keep doing it. I’ll love to keep supporting you, especially with the stuff you’re doing with keeping Biden accountable. If you need any help with that or be apart of that or recruit different people... That’s something that’s really important moving forward because we have to hold him accountable. Like I said, it just can’t be a party and everyone happy because Trump is gone. It can’t be that. We have to keep the heat on him.

Barnes: Once we get done, send me your email. We’re always looking for like-minded people that have a platform, have a voice and understand the greater good of the group. I’ll plug you in. We just had a call with the surgeon general a week and a half ago because they want us to start telling people to take these vaccines and we’re like 'Hell nah.' You know what I mean? So we’re having these real conversations with people who are in charge now, so I would love to bring you in the group.

I’ve been a fan ever since we beat you when you guys came to UCLA when you were at Syracuse. But nah, the way you’ve been able to carry yourself throughout your career and obviously post basketball in your books and writing showing that you care. So I’ve always been a fan of that, so I would love to bring you in the fold and shit, help us out.